Running Uphill | Caleb Rudow and His Campaign for Congress

Caleb Rudow is attempting to do something no Democrat has done in more than a decade—represent North Carolina’s 11th District in the US House of Representatives. A gerrymandered map has seemingly kept this district comfortably in Republican hands, but Rudow sees a lot in his favor as he campaigns against the incumbent, Chuck Edwards.

Rudow currently represents North Buncombe County in the State House. Here, we talk about his campaign, the challenge of hurdling the gerrymandered math of this district and the contrasts he sees with Edwards in their public accessibility, their views of the roles of government and how he would define what it means to represent the district in Congress.

The Edwards campaign hasn't responded to repeated requests for him to appear as a guest on this show.

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Transcript

Matt Peiken: Give me a sense of how your congressional campaign has evolved in the eight months or so since you first announced your candidacy.

Caleb Rudow: when you're running for office the first job you have is to listen and talk to people and to get out there. And I have my own policy ideas, but running for district 116 is really different than running for the NC 11. You're talking, a third of a county versus 16 counties.

And so what we've done for really the past nine months has been go out and talk to people. And go out and listen mostly. And that's been through canvassing, that's been through events, that's been through everything we can possibly do to get out there and be with the people. Cause that's what I think the core of this job is listening to folks.

And the three things we've been really focusing on for the campaign have been our three H's. This is somebody when I ran for office, this was Joe Sam Queen was like, only say three things and say three things over and over again. And it's better if they start with the same letter. And I was like, great.

Healthcare, housing, and human rights. And we can get into each of those, but just to frame where all that came from when you listen to, [00:01:00] Chuck Edwards and Christian Regan's debate. Did you listen to that one? 

Matt Peiken: No, I don't even know who Christian Reagan is. 

Caleb Rudow: Christian Reagan was a guy that challenged Chuck Edwards. Big cowboy hat guy. Somebody described it. It's as if a mad scientist named the perfect Republican, Christian Reagan.

Matt Peiken: So this was in the lead up to Chuck Edwards election, his first election?

Caleb Rudow: This was the primary this year. Primary. This would've been in February. He had a primary challenger on the Republican side.

Matt Peiken: I did not even realize he had a primary challenger, and I'm surprised he would debate a primary challenger. That's interesting. Did Christian Reagan run to Chuck Edwards' right?  

Caleb Rudow: Yeah. It was MAGA make America great again. And, you know, a guy from Texas who just moved to North Carolina and, was going to clean up the swamp, which is apparently the classic line everybody uses.

And in their debate, what you heard from them was one, they were like, electric cars are destroying our country and they're like, okay very debatable on that. And [00:02:00] also, we used to have a Republican party that had a forward looking vision for the world and they just don't anymore, especially on new developing industries.

And then you heard immigration and immigrants being the problem for everything, and you didn't hear anything about schools. You didn't hear anything about healthcare. You didn't hear anything about jobs. You didn't hear anything about really the core issues that people in Western North Carolina care about, and I think we have had representatives for The past many years who have been mostly focused on culture wars.

That's what Chuck Edwards done. It's certainly what madison cawthorne was about 100 Madison Cawthorn, Mark Meadows, and this is I think The challenging political environment in Western North Carolina is one in which we're a very independent group of people And I think a lot of politicians have tried to pitch Asheville or Buncombe County against everybody else.

And this is what Chuck Edwards always does, which is it's always Buncombe's fault. It's always Buncombe is crime ridden, all these lies about how awful it is here, which is crazy because Buncombe is the economic driver for the region. And we keep trying to [00:03:00] separate or Republican politicians have tried to separate Buncombe from everybody else.

And when Canton paper mill closed, 25 percent of the workers who worked there lived in Buncombe, and people who work in Buncombe live other places. And I think the real core of this job, and I think what we want from a representative is somebody who's going to try to represent the whole region and see the region as one that would be better off working together rather than apart. 

Matt Peiken: Before we get into the healthcare, housing, and human rights elements specifically, you just talked about how these Republicans who have really championed culture wars, or at least run on culture wars, they keep winning.

Why is that a winning issue? If the issues that quote matter to most people in their lives are things like healthcare, housing, and human rights? Right. Why do culture wars play such a winning role in electoral politics in this region? 

Caleb Rudow: Gosh, it's a great question. So [00:04:00] number one, I don't know if it's exactly culture wars that's winning those elections for them.

I think some of it is a lot of people just You know, vote straight Republican. They're not making a real critical decision. They're voting on their tribe, and I think the big challenge, and this is for every election, you've got to get out there and try to get a message out to many, many thousands of people and how hard that is.

And most people, when you go to their door, they say, Oh, there's an election this year, or they're not really paying attention. I think about the childcare tax credit. You've got a bill that made historic cuts to child poverty that really worked and then we got rid of it partially because people weren't paying attention. 

We ideally in politics would have this virtuous cycle of policymaking in which politicians make good policies. They make people's lives better. People see that. And then they re elect those politicians. And I think something in that system is broken. And I think the piece of it that is broken is, we don't spend enough time trying to take credit for the things that have actually worked. And Democrats are particularly bad about this.

[00:05:00] When we go out and talk to people, some guy the other day was like, the economy is bad. And I was like, oh tell me about that. And he was like my 401k isn't doing well. And I was like the stock market is doing really well. Maybe you made some bad investments, but as they say, all politics is personal.

A hundred percent. Yeah. And I didn't challenge him on, I just wanted to hear what that meant. but I think for so many of the policies that have worked and some of Biden's accomplishments, we just have not done a good enough job getting out there and telling people about them. And I think that's true for the same challenge that politicians have, which is how do I get my message out to a ton of people? 

Matt Peiken: Let's face it too. Also, being a strong and solid legislator and having policy positions that work or putting forth bills that work, they're not easy to articulate sometimes. They don't come across in a bumper sticker in terms of why this is working for you, showing the ways.

Sometimes numbers are elusive. They don't tell the whole story. And particularly so with some of the policies that are progressive. So how [00:06:00] are you trying to steer the conversation back to showing how progressives and Democrats are making a positive difference? 

Caleb Rudow: So number one, I think all politics are relationships and they're about people and listening.

And I think we spend so much time getting out there on the campaign trail, because I think a lot of people. The basic thing that they want is they want a representative they feel like cares about them and knows their community and likes them. Frankly, and this is kind of a variation of the, would you have a beer with this guy test.

So the first thing we try to do is, every Saturday I get up and I run a 5k in some community and then we go to a festival and then I go canvassing and then we typically have some kind of fundraiser in the evening. And I mentioned that because, a lot of the times when you go out and talk to people, they frankly don't want to talk about politics.

The first thing they don't ask you is not, what's your stance on X, Y, or Z. The first thing They ask you is, how are you doing today? And we have a conversation about their community and I asked them what issues they care about. And we have always tried to pivot or at least to, to acknowledge the first, most important part of [00:07:00] politics is relationships and making sure people know that you care about them.

And I think Often if a politician jumps to the politics and the policy too quickly, a lot of people frankly don't want to talk to politicians probably in general. And two, they don't often want to have a conversation about policies. And so I think when, when I'm often in, in groups of people who, like school groups or groups of older people that are not in the political realm, like not the democratic party, I'll ask a question that is how many of you have met a politician before?

And it's maybe 10 to 15 percent have met anybody. And so one, I think as much as we can get out there and talk to people and make sure they know there's a rep out there who's running who cares about them is a really big piece of this. And then, trying to steer it back to the issues and back to what's working, it's, this is the like art of conversation, the art of trying to nudge people towards, I think, some of the truths that are from the Biden administration and everything else.

And that has to start with listening, acknowledging some of the people's [00:08:00] challenges and then trying to pivot. And there isn't a really clear way of doing that. I think it has to come from a place of acceptance and joy and also You know, I think for this gentleman is, you know, his 401k going down, you're like, okay, I hear you. This is my priority. I really believe we need to do X, Y, or Z. But it's especially hard to nudge people out of what I think we have right now is like a bad vibes economy has been described or just a bad vibes in general. I think people are just feeling like the world is upside down in a way that sometimes I think it's true and sometimes I think we're actually in a pretty good spot. 

Matt Peiken: You just mentioned a little bit ago that it's a lot easier to win a third of a county than 16 counties, right? And what have you found in these nine months since we last talked, what have you learned about what's different about the lives and the concerns about people in these other 15 plus counties that you didn't necessarily have to confront or [00:09:00] haven't had to confront as a State house member for your district in Buncombe County?

Caleb Rudow: Jobs, the economy, just how many of working class folks there are outside of Buncombe and this whole region is, Buncombe is generally the place that has, a little more Power and wealth but it's a working class district and the things that people are most worried about is, how do they make ends meet?

We talk about jobs on the campaign trail, but a lot of the reason we're focusing on healthcare and housing is they're two of the bigger budget items for folks. When we talk about how do we actually support people in this district, I think one of the things that we can do is try to attack some of the major costs that people have and I think health care housing child care. One of the things that comes up a lot and in areas outside of Asheville is public schools. When people think about some of these rural counties, I think one of the things People forget about is that the public schools are often the biggest employer In the county and supporting them and paying their teachers well Is one, you know a great economic boost, but it's also A way [00:10:00] that you get people to get trained up for jobs and be able to Go anywhere in the world with their education.

Matt Peiken: Public education is under attack everywhere. I'm wondering I don't know Chuck Edwards' position on vouchers versus public education Public school funding. Is this a particular issue that differentiates you from Chuck Edwards? Are you talking about this on the trail? 

Caleb Rudow: Yeah, the whole Republican Party has gotten into this hysteria about private school vouchers for rich kids, for some reason. And when you talk about a party that has disconnected from its people, that is, frankly, one of the most salient issues you can ever bring up.

Because you're like, look, okay, you want to do private school vouchers for rich kids, maybe that works in Raleigh and Charlotte where there are plenty of private schools, but it doesn't work out in Clay County, out in Cherokee. And what you have is a situation where, you know, a lot of those counties don't have any private schools for kids to go to.

So this is the transfer of wealth to rich people. It's transfer of wealth to rich people in Raleigh and Charlotte. And for a party that keeps talking about how they're [00:11:00] the party of the working class, which I think has always been this sham, that policy alone should just be a wake up call for a lot of people. Because, those folks can't afford to and, And don't have a private school to go to anyway. 

Matt Peiken: Here's what I think the big sham is in the voucher discussion is that Republicans will say your public school is failing. We are going to give you money that will enable you to pay for a private school education.

Not talking about the quality of that education, but just saying it's not public schools where your kids are being taught wokeism and the, and they're being indoctrinated. We're going to give you money, but it's never enough money to send kids at a certain part of the economic strata to private school.

It just gives them some money, but they can never still afford to pay for it, and what republicans will say in the next breath we're treating everyone the same So we'll give the same amount to somebody who's making 30 000 a year as somebody who's making 130 [00:12:00] 000 a year And then that is just a coupon that discounts their private education that they're already paying for anyway. Yep, that never gets talked about. 

Caleb Rudow: You saw this that you know There was a bunch of private schools raised their tuition amounts by the voucher amount.

No I did not. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So it's, of course it's blatant and you're like, they know exactly what the game is. And when Republicans talk about being the party of economists and business, it's they obviously didn't take many basic economy classes or economics classes and you hit the nail on the head. It's private schools can discriminate against certain kinds of people and the people with disabilities, they don't have to allow anybody in. They don't provide transportation. They also don't provide meals. And it's just this idea that really doesn't work. 

And I talked to one of my friends, a Republican in the North Carolina House about this, and I was like, Look, you gotta explain this to me. Like, how do you think this makes sense? And he said it's not fair for somebody to pay for a public school. If they're sending kids to a private school, they should be able to take their money and send it to the private school, too, because they're paying in the [00:13:00] tax system. And I was like, our country is built on people paying into systems so that we all benefit. That's roads. That's the military.

That's everything in our country. And if we start having this idea that I only want to spend my tax money on the things that personally benefit me, our country and the whole system breaks. Because we used to have a world in which people would be proud to put in the system because they wanted an educated population and they wanted good roads and they wanted us to all believe that When we bought into something together, it would be better, but there's just this, it's like they're taking this idea of choice and money into a place where you should only be able to pay for the things you want. And the government has always been about us paying for things together. 

Matt Peiken: You've touched on a fundamental shift in a grounding foundation of society and that I think we're in an era now where at least Republicans don't buy into the notion that they should pay for anything that doesn't personally benefit them, or at least they don't perceive that it personally benefits them. [00:14:00] And so getting to these core issues, the alliteration of housing, healthcare, and human rights.

So let's talk about housing. Big issue in this region. We have tons of people moving in and not enough housing to accommodate them. Certainly not affordable housing. What could you do as a congressman to Help alleviate that situation. 

Caleb Rudow: The housing issue is a great issue because I think it's a bipartisan one and there isn't a solution that's clearly on the liberal side or on the Republican side.

And it has to be both about how do we build density? How do we build smarter? How do we increase the supply and how do we help folks who are already in housing to be able to stay there? And that means subsidies and supplements and the free market is just not on its own going to solve our workforce housing problem because the free market, as we see it right now, tends to benefit the richest people, and the challenge we've had in Asheville and I think all of Western North Carolina is housing haves and have nots. 

And one of the things we were trying to work on in the North Carolina house, which we couldn't get through for [00:15:00] some reasons, was if we had a second home tax and if you have a second home, you should have to pay in some money to the system to try to make somebody can have one home.

And I think about that policy. And just about how hard it is in this region, because we've got vacation homes here, and we've got people who can't afford one home. So I think we have to have policies that address some parts of the housing inequality. And if you want to buy a second home here, that's great.

If you want to have an Airbnb, that's great. But those things need to be taxed appropriately. And I think the federal government, this is more on my side of things, it will be in control as a congressman, is, the federal government needs to take big, deep action into investing in workforce, housing, and affordable housing.

And that's something that we've done in the past as a country that, it's something that the Biden administration has some proposals for, but number one, that's going to require funding. And number two, fixing this problem requires building more and finding ways that we leverage the free market to actually help provide housing, not just housing for some people. 

Matt Peiken: Getting to health care. When we think of health care in this region, we think of Mission [00:16:00] Hospital and the problems that are happening there. So in a broad sense, when you're talking about healthcare, how are you trying to distinguish yourself on this campaign and the difference you want to make once you're in the house.

Caleb Rudow: Number one, Chuck Edwards latest quote on HCA was he blamed the sale of HCA on the failures of Obamacare. 

Matt Peiken: Yeah, I thought that was completely, where'd that come from? 

Caleb Rudow: I mentioned it because I think this is a classic Chuck Edwards move and it's a classic Republican move, which is there's a complicated problem that would require you to work on it and instead of working on it, why don't you blame a Democrat?

And that's what they always do. And it's, it just, it shows his lack of depth or care about the issue. And this is what he does with issues about the minimum wage and about the child tax credit and about Medicaid expansion. It just is always somebody else's problem. And, he doesn't really actually want to engage in it.

Here's the thing, as somebody who is a congressional rep, you could help push Medicare and Medicaid, or the CMS folks to actually try to take some more action. And one of the things that politicians [00:17:00] have at their disposal is the ability to help push bureaucratic institutions to do things.

And that's number one. Number two, we have had in Western North Carolina, I want to keep reminding folks this on the campaign trail, we had rural hospitals closed down because we didn't expand Medicaid. And now that it has been expanded and this is you know, a North Carolina issue and it's a federal issue. We have given health care to half a million people and that is a historic amount in a very short period of time and When you talk to folks outside of Buncombe you talk to people across Western North Carolina, health care is is one of the big challenges because a bunch of these counties don't have hospitals and their hospitals shut down because Their politicians didn't want to expand Medicaid because they frankly didn't want to give a win to Democrats. You And it wasn't about serving the people and it wasn't about actually trying to do anything. It was about sticking it to the other side. 

Matt Peiken: I also think there's a general ethos and correct me if I'm wrong in this simplification or generalization, but Republicans don't want to feed anything that furthers government. [00:18:00] That funds government, there's a general ethos that we want to cut government we don't want to expand government We don't want to empower government in any program any funding that we were to give to government Goes against our general basic belief that government is bad.

And secondly, it leaves us open to political attack from our right, that any opponent could primary us and say, look, we tried to support that government program and that is not what a real Republican does. 

Caleb Rudow: So I want to talk about the coming from the right problem because I think that is one of the biggest challenges in our politics. What gerrymandering does, it makes races less competitive and when they're less competitive that the race is finished in the primary and that means You know, I had a lot of folks in the North Carolina House who were, center right Republicans and they got primary challenges from folks on their right and they lost. So Our North Carolina politics is bad right now and our congressional politics are bad, But they are made way worse by gerrymandering.

And we can't attack polarization without [00:19:00] attacking gerrymandering. Because gerrymandering is, I think, one of the driving forces towards having our representatives Only represent the smallest portion of people in a primary who come out to vote. Yeah, it's not good 

Matt Peiken: And so it's changed the equation where it used to be voters pick their representatives. Now Representatives pick their voters.

Yep, right So getting to gerrymandering when you look at this map, are there just more republicans on your congressional map that you have to win than there are Democrats? 

Caleb Rudow: Yes there's also a ton of unaffiliateds. And when people talk to me at this race, they're always like how are you going to win all those far right people?

And you're like, okay number one, we're probably not, you know, our goal is to try to hit a lot of the unaffiliated. And I'll tell you, we went out and talked to a bunch of them the other day and some of our targeted canvassing and a lot of those voters are up for grabs. And they're up for grabs, I think, because, again, Republicans have not really delivered on any things that are actually important.

And when they got into office, they gave tax cuts to the richest corporations and the 1%, [00:20:00] and that was all that Trump administration did. And if you look at Project 2025 and that their next plan, it's awful and it's not representative of what the country wants. Part of the redistricting process And part of just extremism in North Carolina, The most extreme worst candidates on the republican side from Mark Robinson to Michelle Morrow to Dan Bishop, Just folks who have no interest in governing and only interested in tearing down the institution they're supposed to support. 

Matt Peiken: So getting back now to Closing out the gerrymandering conversation. Is it a math problem? Is that your main problem? Even though you just said there are a lot of unaffiliated voters. If you were to capture a predominant number of the unaffiliated voters and Win over the progressives and Democrats you should be winning, do you win this race? 

Caleb Rudow: Yeah, really? Yeah, We have to do our job to run an innovative, smart, hardworking campaign, and we're doing that. We out fundraise Chuck Edwards by 50, 000 this last quarter. [00:21:00] We would have tripled his fundraising if he didn't get a bunch of corporate special interest donations. We're out working him, we've been all over Western North Carolina, haven't seen a single Chuck Edwards sign, including at the Polk County booth where they, you would think they would have some Chuck Edwards merchandise.

He has the least amount of cash on hand of any Republican incumbent. So my race, we are $120,000 separated in cash on hand. The next closest race between a Democratic challenger and a Republican incumbent is $2.5 million separated. It's not all about money, but I think if you, you know, if you've, if you've met Chuck Edwards and the folks who have gone into his office, he's a big businessman who doesn't really care about the district, has fought against the district best interest ,for many years. And I think in terms of politicians that have negative records, he's probably one of the most unpopular in, In Western North Carolina, and I think in the state, and you know, we have to do is go out there and be more energized, be more enthusiastic, care more, work harder and I think that's how we win, and we've gotta out-message him and all of that, which we're working on [00:22:00] too.

Matt Peiken: So getting back to the health care discussion, we mentioned HCA. What are some other elements of health care that you're trying to engage prospective voters about?

Caleb Rudow: Number one is, how do we take on some of these corporate monopolies and that's been HCA, that's, I think some of the work that Biden has done to take on insulin prices and lower drug prices. So I think we just generally need a representative who is going to be on the half of people and not corporate interest.

I think the second thing is, I'm an incremental policy person, and I believe that kind of moving slowly is the way that we work. And I think Medicaid expansion and expanding Medicare and Medicaid, like taking these programs that we believe really work and number one, protecting them, because I think Chuck Edwards and the Republican party are wanting to cut everything and that's Social Security, that's all the programs that we actually know are popular and work. And And I think we could do more to expand them and lower the age range for access and decrease the lower income levels for all those. 

Matt Peiken: The last part of your platform is human rights.

[00:23:00] And that is also, I would think a little more elusive in some sense. Some of it plays to hearts and minds, not necessarily to policy positions that can play a role in the federal government or are they? What are some things that are policy driven when it comes to human rights that you are championing, and what are some other things that are more philosophical that you're trying to play up? 

Caleb Rudow: We as a campaign have been trying to take back the rights framework, and I think Democrats across the country are. You saw Kamala Harris's her last ad was about freedom. One of our mascots is called Freedom Feathers. It's a big six foot tall inflatable. 

Matt Peiken: I have not seen this.

Okay. 

Caleb Rudow: Oh, he's great. I mentioned that just as a broad framing that I think Republicans have pitched this idea that they're the party of rights and the party that wants to protect your rights. And I just don't believe that's true anymore. Number one, we talk about abortion rights and you're like reproductive rights, the right to make your own healthcare decisions about your body is one of the most important ones. 

And that can be a tricky issue in certain parts of this district, but really in most parts of the [00:24:00] district, the idea of having Chuck Edwards in your doctor's office with you, or any politician in there with you making a decision for you. it hits pretty home for a lot of people. And I think, the second human right we talk about voting rights. We talk about LGBTQ rights and, you have to find the right way to frame those in parts of places outside of Buncombe County, but just the right to exist and live as you want is something that the Republican party has challenged over and over again.

And I think Democrats would do well to hit them on it because I really think we can, with a lot of confidence say we're the party of rights and freedom.

Matt Peiken: It's interesting you use that word freedom and I feel that republicans have co opted Freedom and liberty as two words and they don't even mean anything to them. 

Freedom to what? Keep your gun. That's basically it. Everything else is about limiting your rights to do what you want. Where it seems like progressives, the very nature of liberalism is a freedom to be who you are and what you want to [00:25:00] do. So is this an issue on the trail? Is this something that people care about that you're finding when you go canvassing or is this more just about establishing who you are as a person and helping introduce you to voters? 

Caleb Rudow: I think it's both a thing that people care about. And also like we have to build a kind of brand as a part of this. And I want that brand to be patriotic and I want that brand to be a part of some of the values that I think this country was built off of.

And also, we have to find a brand that's disarming, especially disarming outside of Buncombe. And a part of the reason we've got these big, we've got an inflatable eagle, an inflatable donkey, and I just bought an inflatable T Rex costume. It's got an American flag vest that's really pretty amazing.

Do 

Matt Peiken: you wear this inflatable T Rex costume or do you have somebody else? 

Caleb Rudow: Well, As I tell my team members, I won't make you do anything that I haven't personally done before or wouldn't do. So I have worn it. We do have team members in there that are, They are required to have a water break every 20 minutes because it's hot in that costume.

Matt Peiken: That's crazy. Okay. 

Caleb Rudow: But we do it, it's funny. It's like we were [00:26:00] in the Hendersonville parade and I was walking with freedom feathers and there was one of our interns was in it and I was like, John, we'll, when you're done, we're going to buy you lunch and you can have whatever you want to drink. But you could see people see a Democrat and you could see them see a national symbol and a flag and an eagle and you could see their brain trying to do the mental gymnastics around like, want to yell, but don't want to yell at an eagle. Oh gosh, what am I supposed to do? 

I'm a performer and my background Is in performance. And I think if we think about a parts of this campaign as being a kind of joyful performance of what it means to care about our country, what it means to care about Western North Carolina, there's a lot of ways that you connect with people. And that's why we're running these 5Ks. We go to all the festivals, we show up. Politicians often start speeches with, don't we all love this place? Don't we all love. Like this area. And they do that because there's a core part of us that I think want deeply for people to care about us and care about our place and care about our culture and believe that it's worth it. Because when it comes down to it, a lot of politics is about, I want to elect somebody who I think is smart, [00:27:00] cares about me and my family is going to make good decisions for us.

And I think that is at the core of our campaign. If you want to simplify it. 

Matt Peiken: Have you in any of your canvassing and going to festivals and being in Hendersonville and the parades. Has Chuck Edwards been at any of these events where you've been at? 

Caleb Rudow: He was at the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians gala.

And I went there and I, first thing I did is I made sure I went to say hello to him. I was like, Hey Chuck, good to see you. And I could tell he was not thrilled about that. He's not a guy who works the room. He's not a guy who likes talking to people. And I saw him there and I talked to everybody in that gala and he sat there alone.

And I think look, so one, we try to show up to as many events that he's at as possible because I want people to see that. I want them to see that I'm there, I care about people, I'm present, I'm listening. And Chuck is there to be the politician sitting at the fancy table and wants people to come to him.

And I really, I think if we can go to as many events as possible that he's at and people to see that and see that We're a campaign that cares. We're a campaign that's smart. We're a campaign that's joyful. And we're a campaign that prioritizes the people. And Chuck is the [00:28:00] kind of politician who just wants to sulk around.

Matt Peiken: Maybe it's not telling because it's not as if I have I'm on the mailing list of a lot of U S congressmen, but I get his newsletters and he will Continually champion that I am accessible to you through my staff. Like he has staff open house days, but he's not there. It's his staff who was there.

I thought that's interesting. Lastly, you said he debated Christian Reagan. Have you reached out to him to have a debate? I can't imagine he would have been responsive about this. 

Caleb Rudow: We're working on getting one set up I don't think he wants to because you're right, this is what he does. He parades around his staff and we're actually supposed to go, there's a bipartisan rafting trip that's happening next week. 

Matt Peiken: Really? Bipartisan for North Carolina? Yeah. Legislature? 

Caleb Rudow: Yeah. It's Tom Tillis is going to be there. I'm rafting. And Chuck Edwards at least on the list right now, he may show up, but he had a bunch of his staff members on there and he wasn't on there.

And it was like, Okay. You send your staff, you don't want to do it. And I think it would be fun for us to be in a raft together. Look, I know [00:29:00] Chuck Edwards and I have disagreements about policies, but I've always tried to be, look, let's just, let's talk, we can be around each other.

And this has been the whole bipartisan work we've done forever has been, look, we can talk about this race, but we really still need to be focused on what's best for the people. 

Matt Peiken: How have you evolved? In these nine months, you've traveled around now 16 counties, gone to lots of events. What's different about your insights to this region now in specific ways that you would not have known back in the spring?

Caleb Rudow: Gosh, that's a great question. I've learned a ton of things about this region and I think the gosh, you were just in, And Avery County running a 5k in the quartz mine up there and Avery County produces quartz and mica for pretty much like all of our phone screens. And there are lots of like little niche things about the region that I could talk about, but I think again, I want to pivot back to there is way more that unites us than divides us.

And when you go out there and talk to people, and we [00:30:00] try to talk about this on the campaign trail a lot, because I think we have come to a place in our country where we're just scared of each other. And we're scared of people being different than us. We're scared of Republicans. And I go out and talk to a lot of Republicans and look, if you're on social media, people will be mean to you.

And they'll be jerks. And there are some jerks in Western North Carolina, for sure. But when you go and talk to people, most people, frankly, want to be good to their neighbors, and want people to think good things about their community, and most people are not mean and nasty in person. 

This was at the Mermaid Fest in Marshall, and there was a guy, I was one of our interns was in Freedom Feathers, and there was a guy with He had this sleeveless shirt and he had a big confederate flag tattoo on and he was like can I get a picture with the eagle with my kid?

And we all got a picture together and look there's lots of problematic things that he might believe but, most people generally want to be good to their neighbors and want to be good in their communities. 

Matt Peiken: Let me rephrase the question in a way that, early on we talked about how Chuck Edwards [00:31:00] has make simplistic statements about Asheville to score points.

I'm wondering if you had any perceptions about the outlying areas of this region that have been upended? Any perceptions that maybe you weren't public about, but just had some thoughts about? Preconceived notions that you don't hold anymore since going out to some of these regions that you probably never set foot in before?

Caleb Rudow: I grew up out in Fairview just outside Asheville. And my life has always been in between urban and rural spaces. And heck, I lived in a really rural area in Zambia and I've lived in lots of places where people are different and I've always believed in the dignity and the intelligence and in folks.

And I think, if anything, spending more time outside of Asheville has reminded me how wonderful and beautiful this district is. And the people here are amazing. We've really had a blast on this campaign, and it's been hard, and the days can be really long, but really, if you boil campaigns down to relationships and talking to people and making sure that you're out [00:32:00] there with folks and listening to them, you hear the most amazing stories, you get to meet the most amazing people, and it really is an honor and a privilege to get to do.

Matt Peiken: What have we not talked about or is there anything we haven't talked about that you think people should know or anything we've glanced over that you want to flesh out more? 

Caleb Rudow: There's one story that I did want to talk about because I think this is emblematic of just who he is.

And I don't think we talked about this last time, but stop me if we did. When the Canton paper mill closed, I sat down with Julie Mayfield and I sat down with folks in our Buncombe County district and considering that 25 percent of the people in the mill live in Buncombe County we wanted to see what we could do to help.

And I reached out to Mark Pless and I reached out to the folks in that district. And you know, we kind of had this idea that Look the paper mill closing is going to be bad for Canton. And it's also going to be bad for the region, because the lumber mills that require it to be open.

And so we held this event that was a kind of regionally focused [00:33:00] conversation about Canton. And we had a time set up and then the morning of, we hear that Chuck Edwards's campaign has set up a similar event or event focused just on Canton in Canton, and it would be a round table.

And, this from the beginning we've always talked about as being like, it's like a natural disaster. When a plant closes, it's something that affects everybody. And we don't put on our partisan hats. We put on our North Carolinian hats and our patriotic hats and we work together. And that morning I called his office and I said, Hey, we're having this event. It looks like maybe there was a scheduling problem. We're happy to mention what y'all are doing because that I think is the job is to get information out to people. And so they listed some stuff and we talked about that at our event. And at his event, somebody in the crowd asks this question and they say, we hear there's another event happening in Asheville tonight. What's the difference between those two events or why are there two? Because like people have questions and that I get that.

And Chuck Edwards says he says I think the representative in Asheville should focus more on cleaning the needles off the street and stay out of Canton's business. Wow, yeah It perfectly [00:34:00] encapsulates him As a person that he could have and he could have done the thing that we did which was like look, We are all together in this. This is a moment where we're not gonna play partisan politics, where we're just gonna say We're gonna work. We're gonna listen. And he didn't say that.

And he didn't apologize and I called him to apologize and he didn't say anything. 

Matt Peiken: Did you actually talk to him? 

Caleb Rudow: I called his office and I didn't have a cell phone number at the time and He just wouldn't would do anything.

Okay, and this is that the big challenge, he This is the problem with the district. This is a problem with his record. And I'll tell you, if you listen back to the tape and there is a tape of it, it's excellent because somebody in the crowd stands up afterwards and they're like, look, I have my beef with Buncombe, but we all need to be working on this together.

And this is a guy who's not a Democrat. This is the guy who was a Republican and a guy who we probably have some disagreements about, but he saw what I think I saw and the grownups in the room saw, which is that we need to be working together. And this has been Chuck Edwards over and over again.

It's always about, look, we don't want to try to solve the problem. Can we just remind people or try to tell people that there's a big crime problem in Asheville and there are needles on the street and [00:35:00] that's his solution to everything. It's the same thing about blaming HCA on the failures of Obamacare.

It's just, it's always the same trope. And I think the people in Western North Carolina deserve somebody who is gonna Try to put the district above taking cheap political shots all the time.