PART 1: Homegrown Leadership | APD Interim Chief Mike Lamb

Mike Lamb grew up in Asheville and joined the city’s police department in 1998. Over the years, he worked under six different chiefs until last month, when he was named the interim chief with the sudden and surprise retirement of David Zack.

Today, I begin a two-part conversation with Interim Chief Mike Lamb. He tells us about his path to law enforcement and what he believes he brings to leadership atop the Asheville Police Department. We also talk about how a carousel of leadership has affected the department, how Chief Lamb views his department’s partnership with Buncombe County Sherriffs and the other partnerships he believes is critical to policing a community marked with visible levels of addiction and homelessness.

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Transcript

Matt Peiken: Is there a law enforcement background in your family history?

Chief Mike Lamb: I've got two sides of my family. One side of my family is from the mountains of Western North Carolina. So the Lamb side of my family comes down from Hot Springs into Asheville and that was at the turn of the century and became rooted in Asheville probably in the 1950s.

I grew up in the same house that my dad grew up in and off of Riceville Road in East Asheville. But then my mom's side of the family, her maiden name was Flintus. And so I had that Mexican heritage also. But My grandparents ended up moving here from Texas, from Austin, Texas, and helping take care of me and my sister when we were little.

And my uncles on my mom's side of the family are all law enforcement. My, I think great grandfather was a constable down in McAllen, Texas. So and then both of my uncles were cops in Austin PD and I had the choice either going for Austin PD and working there or Asheville. Police department and so here I am today.

Matt Peiken: So you had your choice. Why did you choose to stay in Asheville? A lot of people Where they grow up their first thought is I got to get the hell out of the town I grew up in Oh, yes. Why did you decide to stay? 

Chief Mike Lamb: It's the mountains are home. I did summer of 1996 I did an internship with the Austin police department, had a great time. I worked with their narcotics unit, undercover back then I had long hair and a goatee and that I had when I was in college.

At the time in college at Western Carolina University, I was doing a lot of rock climbing, a lot of mountain biking, spending times just in the mountains on the trails. And just Asheville is a great place for that. So the mountains drew me back here. 

Matt Peiken: So you've been an officer here since 98, correct? Correct. I don't get the sense that there are too many homegrown law enforcement officers in Asheville. Tell me, is that unusual? Are there others that you grew up with or others that grew up in Asheville that also have come onto the force? Or is that a real absence in this town.

Chief Mike Lamb: So we've got a good mix. So we do have officers that are native to Asheville. We have several officers that graduated from Reynolds high school, just like I did. And then some that actually are from Asheville that went to other areas. Like we have one officer who left Asheville, went to the Citadel and got his bachelor's degree in biology.

I think he graduated like top of his class in biology and decided to come back to Asheville to be a police officer. So we do have a good mix and also officers from the area, from Haywood County, several that went to Tuscola High School and then just the various schools in Buncombe County as well.

But then while also we have officers from anywhere from California to New York to Michigan to, we have one officer who's originally from Haiti. English is the second language. It's great guy just so appreciative to be here working in Asheville and growing up in Haiti.

Matt Peiken: Is this the first time to your knowledge with your ascension to now interim chief that a chief of Asheville Police Department has been homegrown. 

Chief Mike Lamb: No, so it's interesting because looking back over the last hundred years, it seems like every eight to 10 chiefs has been like internal.

So I was hired under an internal chief. Chief Will Annarino hired me in 1998 and he was one of the big reasons that I became an Asheville police officer. My senior year at Western Carolina University, he taught a community policing class and In that class, he brought in different community stakeholders like at the time H. K. Edgerton was president of the NAACP. So he came and spoke with our class. We had different community leaders that came and spoke with our class talking about their relationship and expectations of the Asheville Police Department. Just the community policing philosophy of the department back in 1998 and the way that the department integrated with the community really impressed me.

So I, I decided, Hey, I'm just going to, put in for APD and stay here. 

Matt Peiken: Yeah. So you were hired by somebody who grew up here. In your time here since you've been on the force, have there been other Asheville or Western North Carolina raised chiefs? 

Chief Mike Lamb: No, No. So, Will Annarino, I think he served from 1994 to 2004 as an internal and then we had Chief Hogan and then right after Chief Hogan was Chief Will Anderson and then we had some interims and then Chief Tammy Hooper and then we had another interim or two, and then we had Chris Bailey, who was here and he great for the time he was here.

It's just so short. It was a six week timeframe. But during that time he got his take home cars and were able to have visible tattoos on our arms. So of course we had another interim and then chief Zack after that. 

Matt Peiken: What has this, And this is my term for it, I guess a carousel of chiefs. What has been the effect on your department? 

Chief Mike Lamb: I think it definitely affects the agency culture because different chiefs come in and they have to learn the community and then they also have to learn the officers and then they have a certain set of expectations that the officers have to adhere to.

And so having those changes, it really affects the expectations of the officers and having those unknowns is also stressful for those officers. So I think being able to have real continuity of leadership and seamless transitions especially with someone that they know really helps them to understand what their expectations are.

And it also gives them the freedom of being able to explore innovative ideas that they may be afraid to bring forward whenever we have a rotation of chiefs. 

Matt Peiken: You talked about knowing this community as a factor. You've had so many chiefs who've come in from outside areas. I interviewed Chief Zack here not all that long ago, and I was surprised that he was retiring I didn't know anything about because he said to me. I love this community. I married someone in this community I'm going to stay in this community and then some six, seven, eight months later. He announces suddenly his retirement. What difference does it make to have somebody of this community being at the head of leadership?

Chief Mike Lamb: I think it's huge. The relationships are already there and not just at the head of the agency, but having retained experience within the agency is huge also because oftentimes the community will reach out when they need law enforcement. But a lot of times they'll reach out to somebody they know and somebody they trust.

For example, we had three shootings over the last week in December. Violent crime numbers are a lot better than they have been the last three years. And then we, we have these three shootings at the end of December. And so the good thing about having those relationships is I received a lot of calls from folks that were concerned, but also had information on the shootings.

So I think it's so important because sometimes folks are afraid to give information over a 9 1 1 tape or give information sometimes anonymously because they don't know where it goes from there or what that they don't have that trust factor. So I think having those relationships is really what helps build and keep that community trust.

Matt Peiken: Do you think there's a difference in terms of policy? Correct me if I'm wrong in this, but I imagine there are certain core policies in law enforcement that are from department to department. It doesn't matter where you are. What in a policy vantage point makes a difference in terms of you being of this locality.

Are there different policies that you might want to either emphasize or introduce or de emphasize and scale back on because you have such a rich knowledge of this town? 

Chief Mike Lamb: I think we have minor tweaks here and there because there are certain things that, but as technology evolves over time, as we have new innovative ideas that come in that we'll have to tweak policy here and there, but the benefit that we have at the Asheville Police Department is being a nationally accredited agency through CALEA, so that accreditation means that there are certain policies and certain guidelines that we have to maintain.

Matt Peiken: What is CALEA, by the way? 

Chief Mike Lamb: CALEA is a national organization that and I can't remember the acronym right now, but it's basically, it's a national organization that looks at law enforcement certifications. And so we are audited and we have assessors that visit us on a regular basis to make sure that we not only have these policies, but we're also adhering to these policies. During the reaccreditation phase, they review our policies, interview officers, interview supervisors, but then they also interview stakeholders and citizens within the community To make sure that we're adhering to the policies that we have.

Matt Peiken: So when it comes to setting policy, you mentioned CALEA being a sort of a guiding post. Is there a sense that local knowledge makes a difference, or is it more where your local knowledge makes a difference in terms of community trust and relationships rather than policy? 

Chief Mike Lamb: I think they both intertwine. I think generally to make sure that We are staying with the national best practices and policing, that's where the CALEA accreditation helps. But again, we, as long as we have those baseline policies, but we can tweak those policies as the community needs within the city of Asheville because each community wants to be policed differently.

Like you can't police one neighborhood the same way that you can another. And because different neighborhoods have different concerns. So we can have a guideline in how to administer community policing, but then we can tweak it specifically to what the needs of not only the community is, but the needs of each neighborhood as well.

Matt Peiken: How does Asheville want to be policed? 

Chief Mike Lamb: So there's a balance there and I think, one thing that resonated with me was during our 60 day initiative that we did back in the spring.

Matt Peiken: You're talking about the initiative with the County, with the Sheriff's?

Chief Mike Lamb: That is correct. Okay. Yeah. And that was our, the kid that we, we were appreciative of the County's extra presence that they provided to us.

And just like we're limited in staffing, they're limited in staffing as well, and they have a whole county to cover. But we conducted that initiative seven days a week and while the county was able to help us two of those days, but during the initiative while conducting foot patrol, I remember talking with a guy up at Pack Square and he really thought that it was nice how our presence was there, giving a sense of safety, but not overbearing.

And I thought, really that's something that I've heard over the years on a regular basis is that it's good to know police are there and that If you need an officer, they're not far away, but not on every street corner. So I think within Asheville, it's that balance of showing presence, but at the same time, making sure it's not an overbearing presence.

Matt Peiken: You mentioned the partnership with the county and I got a sense Initially, that the county and APD were really working in harmony in this.

And then I got, there was some mixed messaging, or at least in the media, that there was some friction there, and then Chief Zack said, nope, things are, when he told me, things are looking great. We're going to continue to partner with them down the road.

Give me your sense of the genesis of the partnership, how it went and what your relationship with the County Sheriff's department is and how that's going to look in terms of partnering going forward. 

Chief Mike Lamb: Yeah. So at the time of the 60 day initiative, we had developed two separate plans that we ended up having to morph together.

So some of the issues were communication issues where because there were two separate plans, we had to see how best and most efficiently that we could have police services downtown. And initially, we looked at maybe combining the presence between the sheriff's office and the police department.

But there's also policies and protocols that our two agencies have. So we didn't work those out on the front end. And so what we did was we divided the downtown geographically to where the sheriff's office conducted extra foot patrols on friday and saturday nights. Within the area of Biltmore Avenue, Peck Square, Broadway, that area.

While extra APD officers were in the Pritchard Park area, Haywood Street area. So the western side of the central business district while the county taking the eastern side. So we, we were able to partner well during that time. I think it was just some of the communication issues at that point.

And then some expectations on answering calls for service, doing investigations. It's a lot more complex than what it seems on the front end. Because if there is a crime that occurs where an investigation needs to take place, and then that investigation becomes a long term investigation, like some kind of serious assault or something like that, who would be responsible for that?

Matt Peiken: Is it the arresting agency or is it whose geographic turf it is? And so we were talking earlier, how there are certain policies and procedures. I imagine the sheriff's department operates in its own certain policies and procedures in its own way. And when you're having to, not having to, when you're choosing to partner in terms of law enforcement in the same turf, I just imagine there's a culture clash in that way potentially. Am I wrong in that? 

Chief Mike Lamb: It's not necessarily because it's like generally most law enforcement tactics are the same, there, there are different expectations. One that I can think of right off the top of my head is like body cams. Like we have a strict body cam policies and have had body cams, I think we started phasing them in 2016, whenever they're a little newer to the sheriff's office.

There's little things like that, but generally if there's a investigation that needs to take place or a major incident like the the active shooter that ended up not being an active shooter at 40 Cox Avenue. Every officer just integrated together. All officers, all deputies were able to mix in together and use the same tactics to make sure everybody was safe in that building had it been a real active shooter.

So in the main things, those tactics and investigations and techniques are all the same. It's just the minor nuances with policy use of force expectations. I'm not sure what they're what Buncombe County's policy is on the use of force. But ours is if an officer is you has to apply any force like if they have to if somebody pulls away and they have to pull them back to put handcuffs on, we consider that a use of force incident. And then that use of force reporting has to go along with that. 

Matt Peiken: So I know the county sheriff's department just put in for some $180,000 to continue its downtown patrols. Is that working in concert with you and your department? 

Chief Mike Lamb: It is. Yeah, so I've spoke with the sheriff several times over this last week and the week before. We've had a great working relationship. When I was hired in 98, he was already an officer with Asheville Police Department.

Matt Peiken: I was going to ask you about that, because you've known Quentin Miller personally probably for 30 plus years at this point, or 20, 25 plus years, right? Yes. Getting back to the element of being homegrown, having a relationship.

Tell me about the tangible difference you believe that makes, just you and he knowing each other, having worked with each other as beat cops on the street and now he is the Buncombe County Sheriff, what difference does it make, do you believe, To have that kind of long relationship with him. 

Chief Mike Lamb: I think it's important on the trust side. Because we both know each other's background. We both know each other's personalities. So as far as that relationship building it's already there. And so, I'm not afraid to call him. He's not afraid to call me. I think we're going to meet on a regular basis in the future.

Not only sheriff, but most, a lot of his command staff or prior APD officers. So from the sheriff down, we have a lot of integration with the Buncombe County Sheriff's office and the Asheville police department. One example of that is the Kia and Hyundai thefts. Okay.

that we've seen all around the county. We were able to charge one young man and he's, we're probably looking at a group of individuals there. But that wasn't just an A. P. D. Investigation. That was a joint Asheville Police Department, Buncombe County Sheriff's Office investigation that came together. 

Matt Peiken: You mentioned a little while ago that up until the recent spate of shootings that violent crime had been down in this city.

I think that goes against a narrative in a sense. I think there's a perception that crime is up when they see visible crime, everything from street crime or loitering and homelessness, the effects of addiction in terms of public visibility. What do you attribute the drop in crime, too, that we are not seeing, what do you think is happening in our city, in law enforcement, that has brought about a reduction in violent crime?

Chief Mike Lamb: I think it's all that APD is doing, that we're we're attributing the successes to everything. No, I'm just joking. No, it's multifaceted, it really is. Crime stats are so fickle that, there's so many different sociological issues that contribute to a rise in crime or a drop in crime.

I've had great opportunities over the years at the police department, and I've served in a lot of different capacities and during my time in the detective's division, I learned that there's a proportionality rule when it comes to crime, and it is that a small group of individuals Commit disproportionately the larger amount of crimes that are out there.

So we could have one to two individuals that go on either a robbery spree, or a shooting spree, or a break in spree. Asheville's not a big town, so that really affects what the crime stats look like. Like, when I was in the gang unit in 2009, We started a focused deterrence model and that's out of originally at High Point. But then we partnered with John Jay College to look at which offenders are committing these crimes. And then we tried to get them resources to stop committing the crimes. But we also had the punishment part of it, where there's the jail time. If you don't stop committing these crimes. And I know that there's been different talk about reinstating that over the last couple of years.

Matt Peiken: You're getting to something that I think is a, is there's no right answer in the sense that I guess it's a subjective and learned view of what is the right balance between helping people and using the strong arm of law enforcement. And when we're talking about a lot of the street elements here, whether it's helping people get off the streets, whether they're addicted or homeless, and there are certain crimes that happen in, as a residue of some of that.

Where do you stand in that in terms of how do you think the city has been, just from your vantage, in terms of its balance of helping versus using the strong arm of law enforcement to clean things up. 

Chief Mike Lamb: Yeah, I definitely think that there has to be a balance. I think if we can get our staffing back up and be able to implement some of the community policing and innovative ideas that we've had in the past, I think that'll be helpful.

Matt Peiken: Do you think the absence of staffing or the understaffing hurts some of these more nuanced ways of approaching crime.

Chief Mike Lamb: Yes I think it does. So, it has to be a combination of presence because as we've seen over the last three years, police presence affects crime, or at least the perception of safety in the public eye.

And so we've heard that several times from a variety of communities that have asked for more police presence because when it was there, they visibly noticed it and how the environment changed. So I think that one of the funner assignments I had was being a sergeant over our downtown bike unit.

And so one goal that I have is to get officers back out on foot and get them on bicycles. The reason we can't do that now is because most important thing that we have to do is be able to get to a 911 crime in progress call where there's a violent crime occurring. And so that's why officers have to stay within a certain proximity of their vehicle to be able to get there.

But I think once we get our staffing up to a certain level, and I don't know what that is right now, but I think I would love to have that downtown unit back.